higher powered N/A

[serioussubaru]

so this seems like an appropriate place to put a discussion on various N/A beast motors. I am playing with some ideas and reading up on various ways they have been done and methods of getting more power into a Subaru with out adding a turbo.

Anyone driving a WRX or STI can leave now because this is going to seem like a major waste of time. However I promise originality and thoughtful discussion.

anyways fact of the matter is phase II 2.5's have decent power and torque, about 165hp and 166torque according to cobb and subaru.
http://www.submariner.org/thepno95/Pictures/Subaru/Dyno%20curves/stock%20vs%20MRT%20comparison.jpg
Phase I 2.5's have about 165hp and 160torque

here is a Phase I 2.2 for comparison the crank HP is supposed to be about 135hp

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/SubaruWRX/graphphp.jpg

A lot of folks have been building "Franken" Motors where you combine the block of a 2.5L with the heads of a 2.2L to boost compression and displacement of the 2.2L.
I can't seem to find any good dynos but I have heard the numbers are pushing past the stock 2.5's a by a bit.

The second half of the equation once you have your higher compression is to play with spin up, lightweight pulleys and lightweight flywheel.
Also cams are important and a high horsepower cam profile mated to a free flowing exhaust and intake are going to get you well into that 180-200 crank HP from what I have read.

With compression increase we see the need for forged pistons and improved head gaskets. Also you move into that exotic high octane stuff the turbo guys drink.

Last N/A power theory is to add more cylinders a-la svx swap
the stock SVX motor is going to give you 230hp with 228 torques.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g153/jesi_marie/dyno1.jpg
and just to stir the pot.. Zzyzx 2.5rs is said to put down 300hp on high octane race fuel.

[hiprsha666]

****, my 2.2 has 92whp. That is brutal. That is cool though, I havent seen any N/A charts before. At least not for my motor.

[squeethebee]

My 2.2 put down 101whp and 118wtq!

ed

[hiprsha666]

My 2.2 put down 101whp and 118wtq!

ed

Stock? I guess that would seem reasonable accounting for about 25% drive train loss.

[boxer3maine]

great thread, never enough for n/a minds.

the boxer has alot of "anti" in comparison to other engines.. increasing flow in venturi on high compression and keeping eveything that is balanced heavy.. even heavier than oem. that is a winners boxer...most engines just want big air and lighten everyhting one can.,.. becuase it is counterbalanced with flaws. Boxers are not.
counterbalnced engines get the lightweights (unless v8).. self balance needs inertia keepers just to thump the next heavier fire going into max power. it is a tricky misconception.

If you don't need steel sleeves in the aluminum plug holes, the engine is making power too light. <- start there, that is easy enough. A lightweght pulley has nothing to do with it on a boxer.

I already have the EJ deciphered.. it has more built in retarders than even a 1781cc EA series...

small intake, max the clocks ability in ecu (that means very tight cams)... the heads trick with smaller chambers is always awesome (the 2.2 on a 2.5).. and leave the pulleys alone.

[abenson100]

this is something i have been looking into as well. but im looking to do it on a less reliable level (race motor). there are people selling 2.5 HC pistons and other ways to bosst the CR. cams canbe made to any spec but i cant remember from who right now, i just need to find someone that can do the porting.. ill fill in th blanks in this post tomorrow after i am done with my final exams.

[serioussubaru]

Stock the SVX's EG33 puts out 230hp. It's a better option if you plan for reliable power. You can pull easy power out of them and all that torque is loads of fun. Remember also that the HP and Ft/lbs start low and carry well through the whole rpm range. :up:
Radiator relocation isn't that much of a problem and even easier with a Jeep radiator that fits tucked under the support perfectly. EFI logic's 33RS owned by one of the guys there named Jack with less than $10 and some custom work put down over 285whp NA with a stock short block and stock intake manifold. It now puts down well over 340 last I remember since EFI's gotten their mits on the car when Jack started working there.
Here's some good info to read over.
http://www.rs25.com/forums/f128/t84339-official-h6-swap-thread.html

[Seraphinwolf]

:lol: Yeah it's frustrating to want more from an NA. Even more out of an H6. :e

[Seraphinwolf]

Maybe we need to push farther than anyones gone before and machine a 5 valve head? If a 1.8 can pull out 200hp...
:hide:
Sorry. Yes I'm watching Initial D again...

[abenson100]

Maybe we need to push farther than anyones gone before and machine a 5 valve head? If a 1.8 can pull out 200hp...
:hide:
Sorry. Yes I'm watching Initial D again...
so sad.... not lol, i have all the episodes ever produced along with all the movies

[serioussubaru]

Maybe we need to push farther than anyones gone before and machine a 5 valve head? If a 1.8 can pull out 200hp...
:hide:
Sorry. Yes I'm watching Initial D again...

YEAH! INITIAL D!

[Seraphinwolf]

so sad.... not lol, i have all the episodes ever produced along with all the movies

Same. Plus it starter getting reimported by a new company taking care of Third Stage and Fourth Stage. Though they've halted on Fourth Stage. :(

[serioussubaru]

so you have totally talked me into this SVX swap. However finding and engine and harness seems like it will cost more then finding an entire car. What do you have for a suggestion? You seem to be fairly local so maybe you have a secret source. Then again I've always wanted just an SVX... is it really worth a 5 speed swap? I mean it is a GT style car and half the fun is being comfortable and wooshing around.

[serioussubaru]

does anyone have any numbers of heavier flywheel adding horsepower, I believe it, it would be cool to see the numbers.
Oh and what is a good heavier flywheel?

[abenson100]

that math doent work out. a flywheel wil adjust the curve of the run but it wont effect peak numbers unless it is on the extremes of the range ( its so light the engine has a hard time idling/ or so heavy there isnt enough TQ to turn it up)
HP can only be gained by making the engine more efficient.

oh im talking crank HP im not sure what a heavy flywheel will do to drive line losses but i cant imagine it would help.

[serioussubaru]

that math doent work out. a flywheel wil adjust the curve of the run but it wont effect peak numbers unless it is on the extremes of the range ( its so light the engine has a hard time idling/ or so heavy there isnt enough TQ to turn it up)
HP can only be gained by making the engine more efficient.

oh im talking crank HP im not sure what a heavy flywheel will do to drive line losses but i cant imagine it would help.

I think your right.. the biggest thing will be with how it feels. You will gain the feel of momentum going into hills I am sure.
With N/A tuning it is all about the feel anyways and how it jumps through the revs. That is why you may not see the number rise on the dyno but maybe you will see it flatten out and more consistent.

[Seraphinwolf]

does anyone have any numbers of heavier flywheel adding horsepower, I believe it, it would be cool to see the numbers.
Oh and what is a good heavier flywheel?

If you are refereeing to the trick V8 guys run of an "oversized flywheel" they aren't heavier, just larger diameter and carry the weight further out on the flywheel often lighter than stock.

Manual swapping an SVX is very worth it. I'd love to swap mine but it's my official lazy car. :lol: Plus all my real money goes I to my project car so I don't have spare funds for the SVX often.

[serioussubaru]

If you are refereeing to the trick V8 guys run of an "oversized flywheel" they aren't heavier, just larger diameter and carry the weight further out on the flywheel often lighter than stock.

Manual swapping an SVX is very worth it. I'd love to swap mine but it's my official lazy car. :lol: Plus all my real money goes I to my project car so I don't have spare funds for the SVX often.

I was thinking along the lines of running more mass to help keep everything spinning faster. I don't know if there is any real logic behind that. You guys had me thinking last night about all the anti characteristics

[Seraphinwolf]

No. Adding mass is a bad idea. Especially now that you plan for the EG33.

[serioussubaru]

No. Adding mass is a bad idea. Especially now that you plan for the EG33.

I'm just going to bask in the glory of the EG33

[Evoeater]

If you are refereeing to the trick V8 guys run of an "oversized flywheel" they aren't heavier, just larger diameter and carry the weight further out on the flywheel often lighter than stock.

This is wrong...Coming from building V8's I can tell you the only reason they would upgrade to a larger flywheels is to add weight and actually upgrade to a 12.4 inch clutch over the older 10.X..to do so they also changed out the bell housing and possibly the flexplate unless they are doing a motor swap or tranny swap. There are kits for this and in some cases special starters..The idea is when you need to put more power down you need to upgrade the service area of the clutch and flywheel especially when running slicks...Most run heavy flywheels with slicks unless they have the "cubes" to make up for it then will run an aluminum or other light weight flywheel. I would run a heavier flywheel if you plan to run at the track..These motors just dont generate the power at lower levels that the v8s do..Also seeing first hand the launches in our cars with a light weight flywheel it isnt worth it.

[boxer3maine]

hey to keep this going.. here is some four valve heads for a vw.

note the position of valves:
http://www.araoengineering.com/VWheads.htm


it is funny with this weight stuff.. no one mentions 200% more friction in the sloppy 4 valve drivetrain and takes away the weight of the flywheel. :lol:

You lighten a boxer in the perfect round balanced momentum makers/keepers, you don't know boxers. Every burp of lightweight thud from a fire disrupts an airstream of coming and going. this is not an inline four we are talking about here. they got a rolling tumbling jackhammer of wobbly thunder for this...and it takes power because counterbalancers are never balanced. Boxers are..hence keeping weight is not the loser, it is the winner. How many decades I gotta run on with these things to know better?

have fun for a day is for a dragstrip, real world climbs hills and even goes down the other side.

if my ea82 had anything less than 12+ pounds dangling at the back of the crank I'd add more. :unamused:

this gets to tight timing... I hear gates/goodyear is a winner for the subes, all years with a belt. :)

[hiprsha666]

This is an interesting discussion. I thought that a lighter flywheel was pretty much always an improvement. I never had heard otherwise. I learn something new everyday.

[Seraphinwolf]

The Boxer motors are so well balanced from EG and EJ on that adding or removing weight doesn't disrupt much. It's more finding s balance for YOUR car and what it's gonna be used for. Reduce weight for quicker spin and less load to power band or add weight that will carry your motor spinning once already running.
That's where for track cars that STAY running at RPM more weight is fine. Going for quicker run up to speed say for autocrossing or where you may be going up and down on your RPMs. Still don't go too light or too heavy either way.

Blah blah, ramble....

[hiprsha666]

The Boxer motors are so well balanced from EG and EJ on that adding or removing weight doesn't disrupt much. It's more finding s balance for YOUR car and what it's gonna be used for. Reduce weight for quicker spin and less load to power band or add weight that will carry your motor spinning once already running.
That's where for track cars that STAY running at RPM more weight is fine. Going for quicker run up to speed say for autocrossing or where you may be going up and down on your RPMs. Still don't go too light or too heavy either way.

Blah blah, ramble....

Cool, I just had never heard of someone putting on a heavier flywheel. On a subie or otherwise. Just learning here. Don't mind me. :D

[tehsbean]

Maybe we need to push farther than anyones gone before and machine a 5 valve head? If a 1.8 can pull out 200hp...
:hide:
Sorry. Yes I'm watching Initial D again...

You do realize that's because the 1.8 spins to a trillion RPM?

If you could build a Subaru engine that could spin to 9 or (even better) 10,000 RPM, with the right cam grind and some decent compression, there could be a lot of power to be had.

Unfortunately there would also be a lot of money required. Like... A lot. Largely because nobody's ever actually done it, so there's no information on it. It makes me sad :(

[Seraphinwolf]

That was what was call a Joke Chris. There are some people that get crazy ideas of destroking different EJ's to get them to beable to spin quicker and higher.

[tehsbean]

That was what was call a Joke Chris. There are some people that get crazy ideas of destroking different EJ's to get them to beable to spin quicker and higher.

I wasn't joking. I really want a 10k RPM EJ.

[Bu11dogg2]

Has anyone looked into the cost of the 3.6r from a dealer or junk yard?

[AllWheelsDriven]

Has anyone looked into the cost of the 3.6r from a dealer or junk yard?


I'd be interested in how much sourcing one of these motors would be.... Im toying with buying another GC... maybe a 98 with a bad head gasket since the DOHC 2.5 has head gasket probs and building or swapping.... I want to do something diff than the wrx swap so either build the motor and strap a blower on there :devil: (auto-x beast). or custom turbo kit or an H6 swap!!!!!!

Only prob with this project is im saving for a house at the same time lol

[serioussubaru]

I wasn't joking. I really want a 10k RPM EJ.thats the way to make power for sure... what was that about a 8k+ EG redline!?!

[Seraphinwolf]

Converting the buckets in the heads to solid from hydraulic. You can safely rev to 8k. That's a LOT of NA power with the EG33. Match that with boring the motor to the same bore as a 2.5 and you've got lots of power and easier time ordering pistons. Hell you could even just get some OEM ones, or be all set to find forged low compression pistons for boost. ;)

[Seraphinwolf]

Has anyone looked into the cost of the 3.6r from a dealer or junk yard?

Too expensive. Even just the 30R's are a boat load. I got lucky with mine. A used 30R with NO accessories goes for about $2500+shipping which would run around $600-800 depending.
IF you can find a used 36R they want LOTS of money ad there isn't a whole lot to do with it other than drop it in untouched or with new OEM parts. Unless of course you want to pay a machine shop to custom make rods abd pistons and everything to make them fit. I don't see man companies be eager to take that task. If they do they'd split the block, see the rods, and call you up telling you to come take you motor back cause they don't wantto touch it.

[serioussubaru]

Converting the buckets in the heads to solid from hydraulic. You can safely rev to 8k. That's a LOT of NA power with the EG33.

now do I have to do valve springs as well? or can I get away with stock, I feel like finding an aftermarket set for an h6 is a little more of a challenge.

[Seraphinwolf]

Like I told you yesterday an EG33 is in short a EJ22e bottom end with a EJ25D top end stretche out to 6 from 4. And you'll need all new stuff anyways if you have the heads done.

[serioussubaru]

Like I told you yesterday an EG33 is in short a EJ22e bottom end with a EJ25D top end stretche out to 6 from 4. And you'll need all new stuff anyways if you have the heads done.
So I just need to buy a set and a half of everything? :lol:

[Seraphinwolf]

Might as well get two full sets to be sure. Not like you won't have a use for them at some point.

[gmullin]

lightweight flywheels are for if your trying to change rpm quickly,heaver flywheels are better for holding rpms.... example when my buddy races at say lee speedway he uses a automatic flexplate with a bolt on clutch kit total weight 3.5lbs... nascar guys that are at daytona ot taladega flywheels are about 50lbs so the momentum of the flywheel keeps the car at speed so they can pull of that sling shot pass

[Soul Shinobi]

That sounds like a pretty good description.

[Seraphinwolf]

It's a spot on description. :up: